Vytautas Landsbergis: the fascisms of Putin and Trump may collide

I. About leaders

– This year there are many elections, we and other countries will choose leaders. In any case, the map of the future of the political world is drawn (was drawn?) by the leaders. There was a powerful time of leadership of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, when the current structure was put together, in which we lived quite well for a long time. Now the construct has changed, or is changing rapidly, and it seems that the time for completely different leaders is coming. How do you see the leadership of this time?

– That time that comes – it does not appear completely out of nowhere. This is a repetition of what started in the last century, between the first and second world wars. Namely – fascism. Starting with red fascism, which later gave rise to brown fascism. True, there was also black fascism – Mussolini’s variant. It became popular then.

– Why is it popular?

– It is popular for the fathers of fascism to play the “wrongfully lost war” card. Being in the positions of the underdogs who will now take and give back. And will take everything that belongs to them. It was like that everywhere – both in Russia and in Germany. Italy might have lost something too. Only Austria somehow did not go down the path of fascism, although it had lost a lot. Maybe because the spirit of the Habsburgs was much more humane. After all, everything was taken from the Habsburgs.

– Yes, but today’s Russia has not lost the war.

– Back then, Russia had lost the First World War. And the current one also feels cheated, wronged, that the lands belonging to her have been taken away from her.

– The defeat of the Russian “war” is the collapse of the Soviet Union?

– Yes, they identify with it. After all, when Putin came, he announced that he would restore the Soviet Union, which was unjustly dismantled. We are at the epicenter of that rebuilding.

– And how do other world leaders fit into this game of Putin?

– There is a fashion – to be a man of strength, to give everyone a hard time. Look, both in Africa and in Latin America, such strong men have been bred as much as you want.

However, the main problem of the world now is this – how will the two fascisms live together and when will the two fascisms clash to the death. Because democracy can’t go to war with fascism. Condescending, appeasing, wasting time. With the saying that maybe that fascism will change. But when/if there are two fascisms – Putin and Trump – there will probably be no delays here. It’s only a matter of time before they go straight for each other’s throats.

– And what does the European leadership do or say in such a maturing situation? Or Lithuanian? What is their role in this play?

– Europe does not have any clear leadership. And Lithuania should be ready for everything, including bad options. To put it simply, in such cases, you should be prepared for endurance and survival. Until the bad year passes.

– Do you think we are properly prepared? Are we preparing properly?

– I don’t think it’s enough. Lithuania must quickly prepare – both physically and spiritually. Must prepare at the level of public consolidation. And so far we are seeing the opposite. Endless confrontation over nothing. And the confrontation is so fashionable, so attractive, as if people don’t understand what awaits us all. That in the face of the coming trials we need to be focused and not pitted once morest each other.

II. About Justin

– Sometimes in political games, and especially in order to achieve the missing qualities, one tries to borrow those qualities from the dead, to draw their card. They are resurrected and brought into politics, trying to defeat their opponents.

What is your assessment, when Justinas Marcinkevičius is now becoming a pre-election card in the hands of some politicians, in order to “cooperate” the opponent, to take the election coffers?

– I think and secretly believe that Justin would not approve of this. He had honesty and sincerity. Although he himself admitted that the times were terrible, where many people had to go down the path of transgression, and sometimes even treason. This is what he said when, excited by the various talk regarding his role, he argued rather hotly – both in defense and in his own opponents. He didn’t deny anything, he just said that a lot of people back then were pushed into such an uncomfortable situation, forced to take the path of moral transgression.

So, I quietly think that Justin would definitely not approve of this politicking on his behalf – especially now that the “Justin the Martyr” banner has been raised.

– I remember, a year ago, the flag of R.Ozolo was pulled out in a similar way, and it was also raised for certain political movements.

– I think that R. Ozolo’s flag was pulled completely out of lack of ideas and nothing to raise. From hunger. And Justin is a card of another caliber. Many people love and appreciate him, even following various analyzes and revelations – his bright aura still exists as an important lyricist and herald of the Lithuanian Renaissance. Unequivocally.

Maybe that’s why the current commune chose to gamble with this card, the Ozolo card doesn’t give anything anymore.

– In your own assessment – excluding political speculations – what is the role of Justin Marcinkevičius in the Lithuanian Revival, especially in the literary civil movement, awakening freedom and unity.

– I think that the role is important, no one denies that. Even his critics do not deny Justin’s prominent role in Rebirth. Although there are those who explain that perhaps the Revival was designed by someone or tried to drive it a little according to Justin’s dramas, in which a kind of line was coded. A certain reconciliation with evil, or justification. Justin can be seen a little in Mindaugas’ words – “there was no other way”.

I remembered the old creative youth camp in Palušė, where high party bosses had come and enlightened our minds. And Zimans – apparently, not Barkauskas was there, but Zimans. And he said this regarding the post-war tragedy: “We had to do that operation, but we didn’t have a lancet, so we did it with an axe.”

I will never forget those words. Then I thought, even though I was a small and modest participant in the flight of creative youth, that following all, when doing an operation with an ax, it might be appropriate to ask the patient as well. At least ask for an opinion.

– Would you agree with the idea that Justin’s poetry is valuable both as a golden fund of our literature and as a bright factor that awakened, raised and continues to raise the nation?

– Yes. Sometimes I would even like to separate Justin’s poetry from Justin’s dramaturgy. They exalt him because of dramas, they want to build a chair, but for me he is much higher than a lyric poet. Sincere, finding word and feeling in unity. And following the impact. How many of his verses turned into songs! Everyone sang and still sings, next time not even thinking that these are Justin’s words. This is the greatest recognition.

And one more thing regarding Justin – having said that not all of his dramas appealed to me, that they seemed somewhat tied to certain external conditions or concepts, I will never forget that my brother, whom I greatly admired and respected, simply adored Justin and his drama. From faraway Australia. Therefore, I would not be able to stand in front of my brother, who especially loved and praised Justin. This is extremely important to me.