It is by telephone, from the south of France (the interview was conducted the last week of June), that he answers our questions. Jean-Claude Van Cauwenberghe (PS), former mayor of Charleroi, former Minister-President of Wallonia, is still a convinced regionalist. A little disappointed by the declarations of his party president, Paul Magnette, during a recent Walloon congress, he nevertheless assures “to be able to live with that”. Hospitalized three times at the start of the year, the man regained his strength. At 78, he remains combative.
Your party president recently put aside his regionalist pretensions, announcing that he did not want a new state reform in 2024. Is this a strategy?
The Walloon congress was only a congress in name. There was no preliminary report, no meetings in the sections and in the federations. It was still interesting, because we found ourselves between Walloons and we hadn’t known that for years. But I was a little frustrated to have to read what the pre-convention report contained in the newspaper the day before. Many were surprised by this, noting a presidential drift. Before, we received documents; now we have to buy The evening to know the thoughts of the president. So much for the form. Basically, I think it’s purely tactical on his part. Magnette is not someone who changes his substantive position like that following everything he has written and said on the subject. That said, it falls within the jurisprudence of Di Rupo. The one by which we are asking for nothing. Nevertheless, in general we agree a lot. However, if he hadn’t said that, we would be very isolated. Whether it’s the PTB, the MR, and others, no one throws themselves at the institutional.
Isn’t there sometimes in today’s political world a lack of knowledge of the institutional history of this country?
I think that those who call themselves unitarists, like the PTB for example, forget that without regionalization Charleroi airport would not have developed like that. When I was a young mayor, we lived with 100,000 passengers; now there are millions of them. And one might find many other examples. Those who don’t have that in mind and who defend the idea that the state might become Belgo-Flemish once more have an erroneous vision and a bad analysis of history. Without state reform, Wallonia can continue to develop. The danger, on the other hand, is on the Flemish side, because they will require skills that will weaken us. Especially on social security. To believe that in 2024 the Flemings will be content to say that the next reform will be for 2029 is to dream.
Will the PS be ready anyway?
It is necessary that, in a discreet way, the party carries out a reflection. Jean-Pascal Labille also told me that at Solidaris he was thinking with experts regarding possible developments in the field of health care. Preparation is necessary. One of the negative consequences of Paul Magnette’s positioning is the strengthening of the N-VA and Vlaams Belang. I would be in their place, I would develop a discourse that would point out the French speakers who, once once more, do not want anything. I believe that Magnette also wanted to break the legend which says that the PS maintains discreet contacts with the N-VA. Because some, on the French-speaking side, try to distill the idea that we were half-traitors who were already negotiating.
And that perhaps also prevented the PS from developing its more classic themes…
If we do a poll today, we will see that people have concerns other than institutions. It makes me think that, at the time when I was in the Walloon government and when I pleaded during internal meetings of the PS for us to be more regionalist, Di Rupo told me that my speech was not audible to the public opinion. It was perhaps not false, but it is this type of reflection which for 50 years has delayed regionalization. We thought it was not audible, and yet people have always voted for regionalist parties. José Happart would not have known his successes if this question had been completely inaudible.
And the refederalization of certain powers, do you believe in it?
It worries me. At the level of the regionalists of the PS, we are opposed to it. There is also the question of the single constituency. In my opinion, this is a false good idea. When I look in the polls that there are a certain number of Flemings in the ranking of personalities on the French-speaking side while the reverse is not true, I wonder. I don’t see what advantage that can bring us.
Isn’t the priority, finally, for you, an intra-francophone reform that would set aside the Wallonia-Brussels Federation?
There are two essential reforms. An intra-Walloon reform, first. Between municipalities, CPAS, provinces, urban communities, living areas, relief areas, etc., lasagna is only increasing. Everyone defends their thing. Everyone agrees to restore order, but no one says what should be abandoned. Then there is the intra-Francophone reform which is essential. And on that, Magnette’s speech, which aims for the status quo, misses an important meeting. Admittedly, he nuanced things by saying that we might transfer to the Regions everything that is not Education, Culture, Research and Audiovisual. This is clearly insufficient, we must go further, perhaps in stages. In any case, to study all that, we don’t need Flemings.
And this link between Brussels and Walloons, should it be preserved?
It is necessary to find structures which maintain it, it is essential. Even Magnette said that if you shouldn’t touch on skills, you might still touch on governance. There may be a community government bringing together regional ministers from each side. Should the Federation Parliament be kept? It must be recognized that on Belgium with four Regions Magnette nevertheless said that he remained in favor of it, but in the long term. I believe that we will succeed if, beforehand, among Francophones, we find a way to maintain our bond. I would also like to mention the Walloon identity…
Do you think it exists?
I was blown away to hear Di Rupo give the Walloon Parliament the most Walloon speech I have heard in my career (Editor’s note: the speech on the state of Wallonia). I had tears in my eyes as I find the conversion of a neo-Belgian into a shock regionalist very moving. (laughs). Previously, Magnette had done exactly the same thing when he was Minister-President. In Flanders, they won their identity through a fight. Not the Walloons. In Flanders, this created other roots. Today, the Walloon identity is not strong enough. It doesn’t fall from the sky, it takes work. There is political marketing to be done. In Charleroi, I succeeded in creating a Walloon commission within the Federation. Dermine accepted. I try to revive the Walloon debate internally because the electrocardiogram is flat. The Walloon Congress, which was not one, still had some good for it because we talked regarding it. Pierre-Yves Dermagne (Editor’s note: Deputy Prime Minister PS) told me moreover that the more he was at the federal level, the more he felt Walloon.
Is the vote in the Brussels Parliament once morest slaughter with stunning not a symptom of a broken bond between French speakers?
I, who am president of the animal welfare council in Charleroi, am very critical of this situation. Even if it goes without saying that the sociological composition of Brussels is not that of Wallonia. That there are differences becomes inevitable and that is what we are looking for in federalism. I note that a Brussels regional thought is asserting itself. But that’s not why it has to cut itself off from Walloon regionalism. Federalism is evolutionary, it is not fixed.
How do you analyze the action of Elio Di Rupo at the head of the Walloon government?
I note that everything I said and wrote twenty years ago at the time of the Contract for the Future is all that Di Rupo says today. I really thought this was going to straighten us out. Admittedly, we have not backed down, but we have not recovered. The Walloon recovery plan has nevertheless been the subject of an agreement with the social partners and the financial means have never been so important. I hope that this will finally be able to prevent Wallonia from continuing to stagnate.
Is Elio Di Rupo the man for the job?
He thinks he is, anyway. But there, as elsewhere, it will one day be necessary to make way for the new generation. The role of Minister-President is important in terms of image. I believe he is doing his best. In particular in its regionalist reconversion.
What do you think the PS should do to recover the share of its electorate that votes for the PTB?
I remember what Magnette said: “It’s the party that is always on the balcony.” In all eras, a party has crystallized the opposition. At one point, it was the ecologists or the Rassemblement wallon. Today, when people are hurting and they are told something simplistic that affects them, they cling to it. I even find sometimes that there is a certain complacency of the press. I believe they have peaked and things will calm down. They will remain important, but as they do not count for the left, since we cannot count on them to make up the cost, they weaken us. Magnette dares to face them, in any case. And I also see that, from now on, the PTB is changing its position by saying that the party is ready to participate in communal power. I think it’s just as tactical as Magnette who says he doesn’t want state reform (laughs).
What do you think of Thomas Dermine, the socialist who goes up to Charleroi?
He is the star of tomorrow and I feel he is a regionalist, so he has my full support. There’s a younger generation waiting and that’s a good thing because until recently there was a certain void behind Magnette. Magnette blows my mind every time I see him. He makes his speeches without a paper in his hands. Some time ago there was a banquet for former Italian miners in Charleroi. I gave a speech there and arrived late to him and he also gave a speech, but… in Italian. It was amazing. I might go on the date with my speech. He is able to do it in Spanish, he knows a few words in Turkish, I heard him in English, and now he tries to speak Walloon more and more often.
It seems that you will soon release a book with a journalist. What should we expect?
It’s not a biography. There will be a press conference to present it on August 31st. I can’t talk regarding it before.