Argentine Guido Croxatto, director of the Latin American Institute of Criminology and Social Development, paid a visit to Peru with his teacher Eugenio Zaffaroni. Croxatto is a man of the left who supports the popular leaders of Latin America.
Guido Croxatto from Argentina is a poetry reader. As a lawyer, these readings help him to recover the ideal of justice. He loves César Vallejo and Mariano Melgar, the Arequipa poet who fought for the independence of Peru. Croxatto visited Arequipa with his teacher Eugenio Zaffaroni. We talked regarding the Peruvian and Latin American case.
– Colombia, Argentina, Bolivia and Chile state that “the Peruvian people fight for the recovery of democracy.” Doesn’t that seem like a forced narrative? Castillo was the one who carried out a coup.
They refer to the basic legitimacy of the Castillo government. The claim to the model and message that he embodied. (The pronouncements) are not referring to the state formality of the procedure, undoubtedly wrong (the coup d’état) that ended up taking him to prison.
On the other hand, the Argentine lawyer believes that Castillo’s legal defense is right, before putting him in prison or vacating him there should have been a political trial. “Procedurally, there is a vacuum or a failure in the dismissal. They would not have done that to a right-wing president. The people realize that,” he adds.
– Castillo was an inefficient government, it might never stabilize.
That inefficiency is because it is disruptive. A president who is not pro-market begins to take measures that the markets do not celebrate and the first thing they say is inefficient.
– But what disruptive measure did Castillo take that was disrupting the market? None.
Prime Minister Guido Bellido, when he went to the south, met with the mayors, spoke Quechua in Congress, it is not a measure, but they are aspects of a cultural claim once morest the Peruvian south that today stands up and goes out to protest.
– But, it is not a disruptive measure once morest the market economy.
That Prime Minister de Castillo speaks Quechua in Congress and is booed tells you something regarding the Peruvian leadership. Let them drive Castillo crazy and not let him govern. The fact that there are two women congressmen asking for the vacancy sets the tone for you as to which policy to follow. Since he wore his Chotan hat, they asked him to take it off, to dress like a president. They are aspects of the colonialism of the Peruvian leadership once morest a rural teacher. Peru was massacred by colonialism.
– But, also due to the corruption of its leaders and Castillo is not saved.
The corruption It is the slogan of the right to discredit popular leaders. Nobody talks regarding the corruption of Mauricio Macri (former Argentine president), Bolsonaro (Brazil) or Augusto Pinochet (Chile). There is always talk of the corruption of leftist leaders to criminalize their economic policies.
– In the Peruvian case, we have imprisoned presidents who are not necessarily popular leaders. Fujimori, Toledo, García committed suicide for that and PPK.
It is true and it seems good to me by Peruvian justice, something unique in the region. The bad thing is the message that remains, that all the presidents are imprisoned in Peru, that any politician is corrupt and politics must be ended. The next step is a military, technical government, without political parties. And perhaps because of that discontent, Castillo (outsider) was reached. Corruption has many faces.
– Evo Morales is accused of encouraging protests in southern Peru, what do you read?
All the popular leaders of Latin America like Correa, Lula, Evo, Cristina, Petro, Boric, have a commitment not only to their country but to Latin America. If Evo gives his opinion, he does so constructively.
– But, Evo promotes an aimara state in Latin America with Bolivia, northern Chile and southern Peru.
In accordance with the cultural claim of the Aymara nation and native peoples in Chile, Argentina, Bolivia, but let’s seek an intelligent dialogue. Many times, behind legitimate claims there are geopolitical interests that go once morest the sovereignty of our countries.. We must think of creating a kind of Nuremberg tribunal to judge the crimes of the Conquest. The colonizers who have massacred our countries must be judged. They have taken the gold from these lands.
– We live blaming the past, with that trauma and we don’t get over it.
But they have very important positions, the Santander bank, for example, is Spanish and the most important in Europe (although the interviewer reminds him that this capital arrived recently with the privatizations).
– From the liberal approach, there is the perception that populism has hurt Latin America, because the policies that are applied over time have no basis.
Neoliberal policies concentrate wealth in a few hands and have impoverished our countries, while wealth is fleeing from Latin America. Argentina has capital flight. Most of the savings in dollars of Argentines are not in Argentina. I am in line with Lula in Brazil, Cristina in Argentina, Evo Morales. Try to protect the natural resources of our countries, so that they do not escape.
– The State must manage health, education and security. An entrepreneurial State is a risk. For example, in mines and oil, exploration is loss.
I agree on that there must be an intelligent association between the State and the market. Health and education are two fundamental rights that cannot be commercialized or privatized.
-The education and health that the Peruvian State manages are a disaster. Peru ranks first in deaths from the pandemic.
Indeed, there would have to be an improvement in the administration of the State. Perhaps they need a reform of the State, but vindicating the role of the State.
-Populism in power becomes totalitarian, they control the media, certain powers, democracy is kidnapped.
Democracy is hijacked when there are no genuine debates in the media. The media are very focused. That is dangerous on the right or on the left. In Argentina, Cristina carried out a media law to expand the channels of access for citizens. We had a dictatorship law that concentrated the media in a few hands. Macri repealed it because the mass media supported him. That law forced a certain concentrated sector to disarm positions, it affected them economically. (…) There you have an example of a pro-market liberal president who did not respect the institutional mechanisms of democracy, who co-opted the State (…) You have to have a more empathetic reading. Peru elected Castillo, Boric won in Chile, Lula in Brazil, Peronism in Argentina, Petro in Colombia.
-Some populist leaders that you mentioned in the interview were close to Venezuela.
I don’t think we should stigmatize Venezuela, but rather try to understand…
-There are more than 9 million people who fled
Yes, it’s a disaster. There is a crisis in Venezuela without a doubt. (He indicates that as an Argentine it is difficult for him to talk regarding Venezuela, it was the only country that supported Argentina in the 2001-2002 crisis when the other countries had already let go of their hand)
-Don’t you think that we are exploring formulas that have not worked?
That is what we have to find out because clearly Venezuela is in a crisis. There are Venezuelans all over Latin America.
-But Argentina is also bad.
Argentina is bad for the Macri government, which was anti-Chavista.
-But already in Cristina’s government…
In Cristina’s government, the economy was in recession, but it did not have the indicators that Argentina has today and especially that it had during the Macri government, where the debt, hunger, poverty, and unemployment are growing. That is why Macri loses the re-election.