2023-10-15 06:02:59
The historian and ex-Israeli diplomat calls on Europeans to get involved in dealing with the Gaza problem: “Do something, because we won’t be able to do it alone.”
From Tel Aviv, historian Élie Barnavi, former Israeli ambassador to Paris and scientific director of the Tempora museum agency in Brussels, recounts the leaden screed that has fallen over the past week on his city, usually so alive. “We have the impression of living in the middle of Covid, it’s a dead city, it’s very strange. And my mind is a little to match.” He explains that in recent days he has experienced horror, anger, and now anxiety regarding what will happen next. “But I try to suppress the feelings to try to think.”
What words do you place on what happened on October 7?
It was the first pogrom of this scale suffered by unarmed Jews since the Holocaust. That this is happening on the sovereign territory of Israel, that is to say in the country that was created precisely to prevent things like this from happening, creates an extraordinary cognitive shock. We compared this to September 11, but at the time, it was an unexpected event: here, they penetrated a border which was in principle ultra-secure, precisely because we knew that we had a hostile entity of the other side.
You said it the day following the attack: was it partly predictable?
Yes. Not in the modalities, but in the fact that the situation periodically creates acts of violence. We have already experienced this, and we will continue to experience it as long as the situation does not change. Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over once more and imagining different results.
You criticize the “imbecile” policy of the Netanyahu government: why?
We have not dealt with the Gaza problem. We let the situation deteriorate: not through negligence, but because it served a strategy and an ideology. We systematically favored Hamas to the detriment of the Palestinian Authority.
In what way?
“We spared Hamas. Netanyahu said it very clearly in 2018, during a Likud meeting: ‘Hamas is good for us.'”
By giving him the oxygen he needed. We encouraged the Qataris to pay, we granted work permits for the Gazans. We turned a blind eye to its arms supply chains, to its rise in military power. And we have not stopped negotiating with Hamas – through the intelligence services of Egypt, Qatar and others – which we have not done for a long time with the Palestinian Authority. We spared Hamas. Netanyahu said it very clearly in 2018, during a Likud meeting: Hamas is good for us.
In what sense?
By permanently dividing the Palestinians between Gaza and the Palestinian Authority, we ensured that there was no feasibility of a Palestinian state. That any negotiation was impossible. Netanyahu might say to the world: who do you want me to negotiate with? Our government’s political strategy has blown up in our faces.
And there are the immediate causes. Netanyahu has put together an incredible coalition: you have no one, in Belgium for example, who can compare to Itamar Ben-Gvir (Minister of National Security, Editor’s note) or Bezalel Smotrich (Minister of Finance). We have to go back to the 16th century to have characters of this ilk in Europe. We have done everything to increase provocations, particularly on the Temple Mount, where we know that the Al-Aqsa mosque is a rallying banner for all Palestinians.
©via REUTERS
Was this, once more, to serve a strategy, in your opinion?
For the supremacist far-right, dominant within the coalition, the objectives are the same as those of Hamas: they seek confrontation. They want an opportunity to definitively annex the territory, Judea and Samaria as they call it (the West Bank, Editor’s note). It’s very consistent.
To what extent was it not above all the rapprochement of Saudi Arabia with Israel that played the role of detonator?
“The specter, terrifying for Hamas, of a normalization of relations with Saudi Arabia is undoubtedly one of the main reasons for the attack.”
The specter, terrifying for Hamas, of a normalization of relations with Saudi Arabia is undoubtedly one of the main reasons for the attack. The first Sunni power brought additional legitimacy to the Palestinian Authorityand a lot of money: there was a danger of loss of legitimacy for Hamas. By waging war on Israel and provoking a massacre in Gaza, they prevented this normalization. It’s not poorly thought out from their point of view. Because obviously Hamas is following its own agenda, and if it means sacrificing thousands of Gazans in the name of this ideology, so be it.
You mentioned the 16th century in Europe: has the Israeli-Palestinian conflict changed in nature, to become a war of religion?
“The PLO was already not a gift for Israel. But most of its demands were territorial and national, not religious: we might think of negotiating. With Hamas, we move into another dimension.”
Yes, he has changed his nature. Not completely – fortunately, there are still reasonable people on both sides – but it has been “enriched” with a religious dimension that it did not have before. The PLO (Yasser Arafat’s Palestine Liberation Organization, Editor’s note) was already not a gift to Israel. But most of its demands were territorial and national, not religious: we might think of negotiating.
With Hamas, we move into another dimension. There is no compromise possible. In the mind of Hamas, the land of Palestine is “Wakf”: an inalienable sacred property, therefore the presence of Jews on this land is a permanent affront. If you read the Hamas charter, Jews are called monkeys and pigs. For him, it is therefore a question of “purifying” the earth. This is the logic of Saint-Barthélemy.
Is the eradication of this organization really the aim of this war?
“A land incursion into a cramped territory with the highest population density in the world is a massacre.”
Yes, this is now the official war aim, but it is a long way from being one. A land incursion into a cramped territory with the highest population density in the world is a massacre – and we have to take into account dozens of hostages. This is a first problem. The second, and it’s shocking to see that the question is barely touched on, is: what do we do the next day? There will be a political and security vacuum that will have to be filled.
©EPA
How to fill this void?
You would have to completely change the software. Stop humiliating the Palestinian Authority, make it an actor once more. Certainly a difficult task, as Mahmoud Abbas is old, sick and worn out, his government corrupt and discredited. But he remains the only legitimate one. We must also appeal to the international community, in order to create a political and security environment, with troops on the ground. We must also call on the World Bank and the IMF to quickly and massively launch the economic rehabilitation of the territory. And proceed with the establishment of a real transitional government. It’s doable. But the government of Israel must be ready for it.
This seems excluded in the current configuration, and Netanyahu predicted a “long” war…
In my opinion, this campaign will last less long than Netanyahu imagines, because international pressure will increase. For now, people are sticking together. But as soon as the campaign ends, we will return to politics, and I think that very quickly the government will fall and there will be a complete political realignment.
International pressure will increase, you say: how do you receive European and American reactions?
Joe Biden provided total support, with concrete gestures – sending munitions, a fleet in the Mediterranean – to try toavoid a regional conflagration, in which Hamas would have an interest. Can we avoid it? We will see in the coming days, the hottest point obviously being the Hezbollah front, on the border with Lebanon.
“For the moment, (…) we benefit from a window of opportunity: people understand that we are reacting. But this capital of sympathy will erode. A bloodbath in Gaza will change things.”
For the moment, governments and public opinion have been so shocked that we have a window of opportunity: people understand that we are reacting. But this capital of sympathy will erode. A bloodbath in Gaza will change things – and there is no land incursion without bloodshed. Joe Biden delivered a very strongly pro-Israeli speech, but with a warning: the laws of war must be respected. So the pressure will mount, and the day Biden says he has seen enough, we will stop.
By then, will we have succeeded in destroying Hamas? Whatever happens, the international community must mobilize to fundamentally address the Gaza problem. Do something, because we can’t do it alone.
Who are you speaking to?
Europe has a huge role to play. In a sense, more than the Americans, who would like nothing better than to lose interest in the region. Europe is on our doorstep, and it has interests and values to defend. Countries like France, Germany, Spain, Belgium, Great Britain, might constitute what the Americans called in another context a “coalition of the willing”.
The tragedy of these two peoples is that the international community never really got involved. THE accords d’Oslo (on September 13, 1993, between Yasser Arafat and Yzthak RabinEditor’s note) died from this: if there had been a powerful control mechanism, capable of imposing respect for signed contracts, we would not be here.
©BELGIUM
In a moment filled with these terrible acts of violence, do you believe it?
Solutions emerge from major crises. From the ruins of the Second World War, united Europe was born. From the ashes of Auschwitz was born the State of Israel. We must seize this tragedy and use it in the service of a more intelligent, more humane and more effective policy.
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