As part of the special project Origins, Salidarnasts analyzes the national character and tries to find answers to questions about who Belarusians are, how we differ from others, and what fate awaits our nation.
Today’s interlocutor is a researcher of Soviet repressions, coordinator of the initiative “Kobylyaki: Shot in Orsha” and director of the Belarusian Institute of Public History Ihar Stankevich.
In the first and second parts of our interview, we analyzed how Soviet repressions affected our national character and whether the death of the dictator will lead to the end of terror.
Igor Stankevich
— In our previous conversation, you said that in 2020, Belarusians “didn’t go with pitchforks to seize buildings and then the reaction began.” But what if they had gone, would it have been different?
— I understand that this is the result of very serious shortcomings. First, it was necessary to work with officials, with security forces, conduct negotiations — at the very least, look for allies among the nomenklatura. It seems to me that such work was not carried out.
Simply going wall to wall unarmed against riot police and special forces armed to the teeth with armored personnel carriers and machine guns is “Bloody Sunday.”
I was very impressed by the way Belarusians protested, by how many people took to the streets with white-red-white flags.
But to believe that a reinforced concrete wall will collapse with claps, Lukashenko will leave, and the security forces will lay down their arms is, at the very least, stupid. In the fall of 2020, I shared these thoughts with my friend, and in response I heard the accusation that I did not believe in our victory.
But this is very naive. Revolutions are not made on Sundays. Revolutions are not made with applause. There must be some kind of fist, a center that would understand what and why we are doing, where to strike so that the system will falter and begin to crumble.
I have worked a lot in trade unions, and I have a feeling that in 2020, some kind of concentration in the moment, a demonstration of strength was needed. And we did not have that.
Walking the streets is a demonstration that we exist. But no one even spoke about what we can do, what actions we are capable of taking – let’s recall Lenin’s theses about seizing banks, telegraphs, bridges, train stations and other critical infrastructure.
— Alexander Milinkevich, with whom we did an interview, in this regard was of a different opinionHe believes that if we had started seizing buildings then, the occupation of Belarus would have happened much earlier. There would have simply been a lot more bloodshed.
– Unfortunately, I agree with Milinkevich. And, of course, if we take the context a little wider than Belarus and remember the Kremlin, then I fully admit that there would be bloodshed and occupation.
Today this is clearly visible – after 2.5 years of war in Ukraine, after the involvement of CSTO forces to suppress protests in Kazakhstan.
— This is precisely the question: could it have been any other way? Could Belarusians have changed anything in 2020?
— I don’t know. I don’t think the Kremlin let us go that easily. For example, Poland gained independence when the Russian Empire was weak and collapsing. It was 1918, then it happened in the late 1980s.
In 1918, Poland paid generously for its independence with blood in the Soviet-Polish war. But 21 years later, when the Russian Empire in the form of the Soviet Union grew stronger again, together with Germany, it erased independent Poland from the map of Europe.
Ukraine is now also paying for its independence with enormous bloodshed. Unfortunately, at the moment the Russian Empire does not look weak yet.
Of course, we can be proud of the revolution of the spirit that took place in Belarus in 2020. But I’m not sure that we had a chance of winning then.
— What did 2020 mean for us? Given the consequences, did these events bring Belarusians closer or, on the contrary, throw them back in terms of the development of the nation and the state?
— On the one hand, it was a national upsurge. But the terror that Lukashenko unleashed has thrown the country back a lot. It is a catastrophe, a humanitarian catastrophe. Many institutions and connections have been destroyed, the country has lost a lot of specialists, experts — a huge potential. And how many personal tragedies — families, careers, businesses have been destroyed, children cannot visit their elderly parents or even attend funerals.
Many intellectuals have left the country. And it is much more difficult to act from abroad, because often the issues of survival are at the forefront. You have to get by, become legal, pay for housing, solve specific problems that you do not encounter in your homeland.
And a choice arises: to do what you did in Belarus, or to retrain as a taxi driver, truck driver, dishwasher, or go into other areas to cover basic needs.
The regime has destroyed and continues to destroy the future of the country.
— How significant is the current split between the Belarusians who left and those who stayed? How and on what basis can they be united today?
– This is a difficult question. I feel that there is a gap between those who left and those who stayed.
But I know that there are many people who remain on the “mainland” and try to do something. I understand how difficult it is for them, and I know that they need to be supported. And the price of their civic position is much higher than that of those who left. The activity of these people is associated with incredible danger, with the loss of freedom, life, health and everything in the world.
Today we are paying a huge price for our uplifting revolution. But we must somehow maintain a connection with the “land”, work with people.
— Emigrants of many generations of Belarusians left in the hope of returningbut it never happened. What will happen with the current wave of emigration: will Belarusians be able (and want) to go home? Will you yourself eventually return?
— Personally, this is my second emigration. The first was to Russia, and I don’t regret it at all, although I never wanted to stay there. After the annexation of Crimea and the war in Donbass, the desire to leave Russia only increased.
But, on the other hand, I gained a colossal, unique experience there, which I would never have received in Belarus under any circumstances. This experience was very useful to me when I returned to Minsk and created the initiative “Kobylyaki. Shot in Orsha”.
I don’t know whether I’ll come back or not this time. In 2020, I set a deadline that the crisis in Belarus would subside in 3-5 years. I’ve been in Poland for 4 years now, and the state terror in my homeland hasn’t stopped. And there are no signs of change yet. So I need to settle down here, live, meet my daily needs, help my children, and continue doing what I consider important.
Of course, many Belarusians will not return. Those same doctors are unlikely to want to return, because they are not trash here, like in Belarus, where they were forced to work for pennies for 24 hours. They have decent salaries and prospects here.
If people settle down, get settled, acquire connections, work, children, real estate – why return? This is very sad.
— Your relatives also emigrated at the beginning of the 20th century. What was their experience?
— In 1919, shortly after the October Revolution, three brothers emigrated to Poland. Their fates became a good example for me when I was deciding whether to leave Belarus or not. Before World War II, they all realized themselves in military careers.
One even became a famous sculptor – his name is Mikhail Kamensky, he is from near Orsha. Today his monuments adorn Warsaw, Torun. I collect information about him and am very proud of him. Another was the commandant of a pilot school and died in the Warsaw Uprising.
And those relatives who remained learned what terror was. The state persecuted them since 1927. That was when my great-grandmother’s two brothers were arrested for the first time. Then there was dispossession, arrests, deportations, new terms in 1930, 1931, 1934.
The apogee was 1937-1938 — the peak of the Great Terror. Then the communists shot 12 of my relatives. The last time my in-laws — mother and son — fell into the millstones of repression was in 1944-1945. In the 1950s, they managed to leave for Poland. And recently I met my uncle. He was born in Poland, but in the 1970s he moved further West, to Germany, away from the commune.
Today, my family history reinforces my belief that I made the right choice.
— What do you see as the prospects for our country and Belarusians themselves as a nation?
— My friend, historian Yuri Gribovsky, once gave a report on the history of the interwar Belarusian emigration. From his report I learned that political life in the Belarusian emigration (and, probably, not only in the Belarusian one) was dying over the years. And what survived? It was precisely the activity associated with the preservation of culture and memory that survived.
It seems to me that this is precisely our path. Preservation of history, preservation of culture, identity. And politics, I fear, may be doomed.
And what about the country? Everything is very sad for now and it is difficult to predict anything. I can only say what I would like. I would very much like the war in Ukraine to end and Russia to moderate its imperial ardor. But I do not believe in it.
I would very much like for the terror in Belarus to end. But I am afraid that this is impossible while the leader is alive.
I would like those who want to return to Belarus to return. At least so that Belarusians can visit their homeland in peace.
The consequences are still severe and probably irreversible. And it is unclear when the window of opportunity will open for us again. Maybe with Putin’s death. Maybe with Lukashenko’s death.
But, on the other hand, waiting for something is wrong. Life happens here and now, you have to live it in the moment, but think about the future. A life postponed will become a disappointment, because time is running out, you can’t stop it, you can’t rewind it.
Therefore, you need to live, love, enjoy life, travel, learn something new and do what you can in the place where you are. Do what you consider important: if you consider it important to raise a family and bring up children – raise them and grow, if you think you need to work for the future of your country, your people – work.
